Fatrank Podcast

James Dooley: AI SEO, LLM SEO, chat GPT SEO, GEO, whatever you want to call it. Today, I'm joined with James Norquay, and we're going to talk about different AI SEO tips and tricks. First and foremost, let's just kick straight off, James. What do you actually call it yourself within the agency?

James Norquay: Uh, we call it GEO. Um, I think we just rolled with that term probably like a year ago. I think it started getting big. So yeah, we we were one of the first in our market to call it that. I mean, we also use AI SEO, but um at the end of the day, it's all about what the customer wants. Like I don't really care too much about like SEO politics around using the terminology. I just care about what customers want and people want more visibility in these large language models. They want revenue coming from them. So that's what we care about.

James Dooley: So the first question there then if the what do you think that SEO and AI SEO let's call it oh let's call it GEO do you think that SEO and GEO is exactly the same or do you think that there is different kind of nuances to it?

James Norquay: I think a lot of the fundamentals are pretty similar. Like a lot of the like SEO fundamentals cross over, but I think there's like like little intricate differences, you know, like your how you have your tracking set up, you know, like um your visibility monitoring. I think um there's all these little like hacks that you can do too like um you know like LLM info pages and like um um LLM sharing buttons and um all these like little things and like and just how you chunk content and things like that. Having content um easy and accessible for LLMs like how that's positioned on pages. There's all these like little tactics that you can put into a strategy that may be different to traditional SEO, you know, even like getting citations and and um how you go about that. Like if if we want to get visibility on like chat GPT, like I I might go out and get 50 citations from different sites. I don't even care about the links. like I just want to get citations and we just want to get visibility like that. But but traditional SEO you probably care more about the getting the link, you know. So yeah, I think there are like slight differences. Um, but yeah, I mean most of the the fundamentals are pretty similar, but it's it's the it's the key little differences that's what clients pay you for, you know, that's where like they want to come to your your company and say, "Look, can you give us that competitive edge, you know?" Yeah. So yeah,

James Dooley: I think I think from my point of view, I think there's a um a distinctive difference and I I I try to from my point of view why there's a distinctive difference is because you said at the start of this video with regards to it I just do what the customer wants and if the customer says I want AI search visibility then therefore and they're not looking for an SEO agency. You need to offer them a GEO kind of package and this is how we are going to do it. And then you touched upon there which I completely agree with that it's not like a page rankbased link juice link juice based algorithm the AI it comes down to corroboration and branded mentions and done in a strategic way that it's not really about the link it's about the co- citations being done and so on and so on. So I completely agree with you. I think there is a it should be marked as being different if the customer wants something that's different which they do and there's different nuances. But digging into um GEO tips and tricks then you was one of the first that I'd seen that started to do the um AI share buttons. So kind of summarize this article on chat GBT, summarize this article on perplexity, summarize this article on Grock or on Claude and stuff like that. What what made you try to start doing that? And have you seen that this helps in any way, shape or form that the share buttons on AI?

James Norquay: Yeah. So, basically, um, we tested that on some of our own sites that we own. So, basically, um, I can't remember the exact day. I think it was like May or June last year. We, um, we tested that cuz we have a like as a agency, we run our own sites, too. So, we got like travel sites and just sites in different niches. And, um, yeah, like just for shits and giggles, we rolled out a bunch of these um, LM sharing buttons. um uh basically with testing some um different uh text within them like uh like store this in your memory and things like that for chat GBT and um yeah basically um we saw like a pretty good uplift and then I I shared this strategy to some other um people I know in the in the growth communities, guys like Jared Codlin and and they kind of went hard on these strategies, you know, driving like uh tens of thousands of uh traffic to to some of these methods. And um yeah, they they definitely saw some really good results off the back of it. Um yeah, and I think like it it was a good little tactic that you could then test and share with uh clients because I think the thing is like in my experience, clients like to be ahead of the curve, you know, and they like to be doing stuff the competitors are not doing. So, like saying that, hey, we've got our own test websites and we've tested this and we've seen like good um traffic growth and we've seen um this happen off the back of it. Like you could do this on your site. Once you have a little bit of a test bed, uh people love that. So yeah, we um we've done a little bit of that for a couple of clients and and like I'll be honest with you, some of the enterprise clients, they don't want to roll out stuff like that, but we have like high growth um startups that they they're they're more willing to test things and implement things like that. So yeah, definitely um definitely saw some good uh good traffic growth off the back of that.

James Dooley: Yeah. And then with regards to any other tips and tricks to do with specifically GEO or AI SEO, what what else are you finding that's working at present that clients are loving or they're wanting more of?

James Norquay: Yeah, I mean like just like basic stuff like just um you know like uh just optimizing pages and for like keyword chunks and stuff like that and just and just like doing the keyword research and and and like looking at like more question stuff, you know? So like setting up like Reax and um and GSC and like looking and mining your questions and then trying to to to answer that stuff on pages and because I I find like a lot of LLMs people are more asking questions and stuff like that, you know? They're not going to go to like chat GPT and just search for like mobile phone or something. They're going to say like what's the best mobile phone for over 50s or or like it's really going to be question based. So doing the research and and building out uh content um within client sites that have uh a heavy focus on questions is definitely um definitely something our team's doing and uh we're seeing some good results off the back of that. Um yeah, I mean like we've seen some clients that are getting like $500,000 of revenue a month from chat JBT in certain verticals. So it is starting to make money. Like people are starting to say, "Shit, this is actually working." like we're making some money off the back of this. Let's try and do more of this. So, yeah. I mean, there's other little things like just trying to fix mis misinformation within LLMs. I think that's a big one, especially with big companies. Like, people um really hate it when there's uh misinformation online. Like, um say for example, it's got the wrong CEO listed on a huge amount of citations or something like that. doing like a a a brand uh GEO audit. So, we kind of come in and and look at the the business's health from that point of view. That's been a really popular service because uh like you said earlier, like some people will come to us and they say, "Look, we're already doing SEO in-house. We're already doing digital PR inhouse. We need a specialist team to come in and just help with this. Like, don't sell me any other service. I just want to get like a GEO audit, you know? I we want to know what our like how we can improve on this and how our team's performing like. So, 100% you're right like uh people really care about their how they're performing on that. So,

James Dooley: I think I think the huge one for the GEO audits that you're talking about there is because of queer fan out now of what's happening with queer fan out. If someone was to go and s search is James Norquay legitimate or is James Norquay trustworthy? Well, what does that mean? Like what? Like so then the query fan out comes along with like James Norquay testimonials, James Norquay reviews, when did James Norquay start SEO, when did James Norquay do this? And it comes out of all these different fan out queries. And if you're not controlling the messaging on each one of them fan outs that's coming along, your overall consensus score is not very high. So it can end up giving instead of it being a positive sentiment, it can be a balance like yeah there's some credible sources online however it doesn't seem to have a lot of case studies or however he doesn't seem to have many or any reviews on Trust Pilot and stuff like that. And I think as well as the misinformation sometimes just putting some information online as well of who they are and what they do where they might not have done it previously. They might be ranking number one. the amount of people that I see ranking number one in Google, but they're not recommended in AI. And that's why I'm then saying GEO and SEO is a different ballgame. We've got a completely different team for GEO than we do for SEO. Yes, there's loads of overlap. I'm not denying that fact. But the fact you can rank number one in Google and not be recommended in AI then starts to tell you the different intricacies and different nuances like like you spoke on. Do you do anything then with obviously you mentioned there about chunks and it's another thing that I took from you and why I was desperate to get you on with to do with I SEO tips and tricks because I seen the Reax that you put in Google search console for anyone that just doesn't understand that. Can you explain what that is? I'm pretty certain majority should know what that is. But explain what the Reax kind of formula is in Google search console and then what you mean by chunks like passages of content just in simplistic terms so they'll understand what you mean.

James Norquay: Yeah. So I think the easiest thing with Reax for like Google search console. I think the the best thing for someone to do would just be to search like um reject example for Google search console on like Google cuz like there's easy like um code that you can just copy and like for like especially for questions. So that's definitely one thing that I'd say for people to do there. Um I mean for chunks it's just like the chunks of information that AI is going to pick up. Um you mentioned query fan out process like our team has a whole process for that like um I got about 15 people in our geo committee at the moment in our office basically just working across different things. So, um, yeah. I mean, I'm not totally involved with everything, but like there's there's just like so many new things coming out that people are testing like within our team every every day essentially. Like we have a separate team chat just for like AI, SEO, and GEO news and just things that are just coming out just like every day cuz it's it's freaking hard to keep up with all this news and and changes. It's like like god there's enough SEO news and like but then AI it just feels like it's this whole new ball game. So um yeah I mean like in terms of explaining um in simplest form I think the easiest thing for people to do is just just Google or YouTube things like what is a chunk like can like redjack example on YouTube cuz it's hard to explain this stuff over on a podcast. you know, the easiest thing you can do is just go to YouTube and just like put it in because then there'll be some guy that's done a 20inute video about how to do Re checks for Google Search Console and some bloke just like freaking broken down the whole process and and um yeah, that's that's always what I say to people in the office, you know, like just um just jump onto like YouTube and uh or Google and just find like a full-on guide about this stuff because yeah, there's there's massive guides online.

James Dooley: And then with regards to AI SEO tips and tricks, is there anything else that's missing or to summarize if someone's not doing it yet? Like what else with regards to AI should people be looking at that they might not have realized that they should be within the business?

James Norquay: I think like some people like just don't even think about the basics, you know, like is your website blocked from AI search? You know, I had some some AI SEO tool hit me up the other day and they were like trying to pitch something and they said our website's visibility was 60% or something and then they shared a client's example and then I looked at the the client, you know, and they that client was that they shared me was like blocking GPT bot in the in the robots um txt of that client, you know, and I'm like, hang on a second, like if this GEO tool is so good, why haven't they even checked the technical fundamentals? tools, you know, even like sites that uh have a lot of JavaScript issues and things like that, you know, like if Google can't um uh render the site like um AI search like bots are going to have a huge amount of issues as well. That is one big thing like just doing like a technical analysis from an AI search point of view. like for some especially news publishers like you'll get some IT guy that will just go in and block everything and um that can be catastrophic as well. Um I definitely I like just going and doing the technical basis of that like just the basics you know and then just yeah just ensuring that um everything's accessible. I think things like LLM's.info info pages. I definitely feel like they work. Like I've seen some people in the industry say, "Oh, no, they don't work." But I mean, we've seen LLM info pages getting picked up as citations for clients, you know, and the fact that they're getting picked up for citations. That's an indication to me that, hey, they actually matter. I mean, LLM.ext, I think people have tested that, that doesn't seem to work. You know, I've seen it people talking about they've done massive tests where they um they added it to like thousands of websites and it it didn't even get um any bot activity. So yeah, I think um just

James Dooley: You're saying don't bother with the llms.txt, but they do bother lm.info.

James Norquay: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I've we've tested them all, too.

James Dooley: And what you're putting on on the llm.info, info what you're putting on there. Is it just just short snippet factual information?

James Norquay: Exactly. Just information about the business, you know, like what the company is, when it was founded, just everything you'd want an LLM to know about your site, you know. I think uh Steve Tooff has a really great uh generator to make those pages, too. Like, I'd highly recommend people to check out that. I think he has a GPT for that, I'm pretty sure. Or I think it was a generator. I can't remember. But like we just build them in house, you know, for our team. Pretty pretty easy to do. Like just the easiest thing you can do is just go and see what other people have done like for their LLM info pages like big brands. Like a lot of people are doing them quite well. The thing is the fact that they're getting picked up as citations is enough of a signal to me to think, hey, this is worth doing.

James Dooley: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Like I said, if it's being cited, then it's obviously being crawled and being used

James Norquay: 100%

James Dooley: within it. So you you should definitely be doing it. Well, James, it's been an absolute pleasure. Um, anyone who likes this, if you got any comments, if you want any follow on kind of questions to be answered, leave a comment in the comment section. James, it's been a pleasure and hope you like the video on AI SEO tips and tricks.