Fatrank Podcast

James Dooley:
Hi, today I'm joined with Andrew Holland and today’s topic is the UK SEO community and the classic saying of “your network is your net worth.” We’ve met at a couple of events – most recently at the Masterminders in Manchester. So why do you think that growing a community, especially in the SEO community, is important?

Andrew Holland:
Do you know what, James? I love this subject because network science is something I’m massively interested in. Everything is connected, and there are some fantastic books out there. If anyone wants to read one of the best books on network science, read Linked by Albert-László Barabási. It’s amazing for showing how everything’s connected and how networks work.

First of all, networks are life – and that’s proven across everything from Google to bridges in Denmark and everything else. There’s so much connection going on in life. So networks, by their very nature, are something you want to grow. If you grow your network, you grow your opportunities.

As human beings, yes, we have online networks because they’re easier to scale and there’s less barrier, which is fantastic. But I think COVID showed us what happens when you cut off physical networks and the ability to communicate in person – it kills everyone’s mental health.

We’re creatures that are designed to cohabitate. We’re designed to get into herds, into tribes, into groups. Look at football hooliganism for an example of that. In the UK especially, football hooliganism is a key aspect of tribes up and down the country – people fighting for reasons they don’t really know why, but very passionate about something.

We want to be in tribes. It’s embedded into our DNA. And I think there is opportunity there. Us meeting, us doing this podcast leads to opportunities that we don’t even know yet, because you’ve got connections, I’ve got connections, and until you build a node or a link between two nodes, you don’t know what connections can happen.

There’s tons of scientific evidence that supports networking. I don’t know if it was you or Kasra who came up with “your network is your net worth” – I’m going to say it’s you, James, on the podcast. When I heard that saying, I thought that’s brilliant because I get that. If you do any network analysis or network graphs and see it in real terms, you can literally see the net worth of a website displayed in its authority and links. And that’s no different from an individual.

I would love it if a SaaS came along – maybe one exists – where you download your LinkedIn and it builds a semantic chart of your connections and gives you some kind of scoring, and even tells you who you should be connected with. That’s like a top-level map of your network. I’d love that.

But I think physical networking, especially in the SEO community, helps with getting jobs, getting leads, getting clients. BNI was built on this idea, and there are probably billions in revenue that have passed through those rooms. I know major agencies that are now multi-seven figures that were started literally through networks – not because of traditional outbound marketing, but because they connected with people and grew.

So yeah, networking should be a massive part of everyone’s priority list.

I’m a bad person for this, by the way, because I get overwhelmed with communications. I get like 100–200 messages a day on LinkedIn alone from different people. I’ve got three email inboxes, each rammed with sales messages, then school messages, then life stuff on top of that. It can be overwhelming. So having a good community to go to where you can take a breather is really useful.

And having built communities – not in SEO but in other areas – I know it’s also very challenging. I’m a big fan of paid communities. I like paid communities because when you’re paying for something, you use it more. I’ve been part of paid communities that led to massive opportunities. I wouldn’t have a career if it wasn’t for the SEO That Works premium community.

I bought Brian Dean’s Backlinko SEO That Works course years ago, and the premium community inside – just a Facebook group – generated hundreds of thousands of pounds of revenue for me over the years. It connected me with people like Noah Kagan, Russell Brunson, and others I did work for. It got me on Backlinko, I wrote for them, did work for them, and it led to tons of opportunities.

So I’m living proof that networks matter. I know you’re a massive believer in them too. There’s also a fantastic book called Never Eat Alone – I can’t remember the author – all about networking and the importance of human connection.

So yeah, I’m all for networking.

James Dooley:
Yeah, for sure. I think especially in the SEO community, networking is important because of innovation. Things are changing constantly – we’ve now got AI, new algorithms – and you can learn a lot from other people.

As you said, it opens doors and opportunities like there’s no tomorrow. It was interesting what you said about paid groups and paid communities. I love that too.

I always liken it to this: people ask, “Why go down that route?” And I say, well, the barrier to entry is slightly higher, but the main thing is if I pay for a personal trainer, I’m not missing the gym. When I pay for a community, I’m going to make sure I justify that payment. I need to network, attend the events, provide value as well as get value. Once you’ve paid, you want to get a return on that – just like with a PT.

Not many people talk about the paid communities, but I think they’re powerful. And I think the UK SEO community is thriving right now. There are so many things going on. I used to travel all over the world – the US, Chiang Mai, Europe – for SEO conferences, and I still love that. But the UK SEO community is so strong now with private masterminds and events.

Some are paid, some are not. But on a weekly basis there are different private masterminds going on at a really high level. We don’t need to travel to the other side of the world anymore. That’s what I’m loving about the UK SEO community – people like yourself, absolute living legends in the SEO community. It makes things great because we’ve got a good crowd who are testing, breaking things, and seeing what’s working in today’s algorithms.

Andrew Holland:
Sorry to cut across you, James. We actually ran one yesterday – a lunch-and-learn event in Manchester. We invited about 30 people from around 11 of the UK’s biggest brands. It was at Browns in Manchester. We had lunch, then did about a two-hour presentation around GEO and digital PR. The feedback was fantastic.

You don’t do that because there’s an immediate payback. We’re doing it because we want to increase the connection we have with those individuals. It’s more intimate than a BrightonSEO conference or something like that – not that those events are bad, they’re just a different type of networking.

I have conversations with a lot of people in biz dev. Networking is a real-world skill, and as an industry we’ve kind of shoved networking into a little folder, in favour of “oh, you just do digital.” But actually, no – you don’t. You get a tremendous connection from being in the same room as someone.

I’ve got a connection – not really a friend, but a contact – who’s an incredible top-level copywriter. His name’s Brian. He runs a community and makes millions a year from his private mastermind, and there aren’t many people in it. His email list is only about 1,000 people, but when he says something, people listen.

There are masterminds in everything from copywriting to PR to GEO. That’s why I’m so excited about GEO and the AI masterminds. I’ve been so tempted to join AI school programmes and things like that – communities where people are in the trenches, sharing knowledge for $20–$30 a month. It’s nothing.

The only reason I don’t is time. I’m limited on time. But if I were time-rich and income-poor, I’d definitely join them. You’re talking about the cost of Netflix per month to learn with people and connect with people.

Also, a little bit of feedback about the Masterminders event that ran: Kasra gave everyone a little gold coin. I’ve still got that gold coin. I can’t get rid of it because I like it – it’s weighty, it feels like something. It’s gold, it’s got the QR code on it, and it feels like a token.

I haven’t seen anything like that since Ryan Deiss’ DigitalMarketer Lab. I remember DigitalMarketer Lab – you got a pack in the post, a sticker to put on your laptop. That was genius, because in a coffee shop you could open your laptop and see who else was in the community. They had a Facebook group where millions in revenue passed between members. They did physical events. Russell Brunson did the same with ClickFunnels – huge conferences with the whole community.

So for me, networking is massive.

James Dooley:
Yeah, for sure. And on that, you touched upon GEO. For anyone interested in the difference between SEO and GEO, make sure you check the link – me and Andrew talk at length about that in another piece of content.

If you’re from the UK and you’re in SEO, make sure you reach out to either myself, James Dooley, or Andrew Holland to see when the next events are. There are lots of private masterminds and different conferences going on throughout the UK.

So make sure you reach out to one of us or leave a comment, and we can tell you when the next events are. Hope to see you again soon. I appreciate it, Andrew Holland, and see you again soon.

Andrew Holland:
Thank you, James.