Fatrank Podcast

Hi there. My name's Andrew Holland and I'm here with James Dooley. We're going to have a chat about some of the things that James Dooley does. I’ve known of James for a long time. He’s a big character and, like many people, I’ve wanted to pin him down and interrogate him. That’s what I’m going to do now, because I want an answer from the man himself. What exactly do you do for people, James Dooley?

**James Dooley:**
Good question, Andrew Holland. We do lead generation in the UK for UK businesses looking to grow. The business model is PWYW, pay-what-you-want. Some people call it no win, no fee or performance-based lead generation. We prefer pay-what-you-want marketing.

People often ask why we use that model. We noticed that some business owners are very frugal and will only ever pay a small amount, while others make more profit and are willing to pay much more. This system helps us identify who we want to work with long term.

It’s similar to the steakhouses that removed prices from the menu. When the customers chose their own price, the restaurant ended up making more than when fixed prices were listed. The change increased revenue. We adopted that logic. It's worked very well for us and allows us to be selective with partners. PWYW lets UK businesses grow while giving us the best long-term relationships.

**Andrew Holland:**
That’s a fascinating model. I’ve heard rumours that Google wants to move paid search in a similar direction, where businesses set the value of a lead or sale. It aligns with what you’re doing. It also gives the customer more control.

So let me push you on lead generation. Everyone loves the phone ringing and the inbox pinging. But quality is everything. How do you ensure the leads are actually good?

**James Dooley:**
That’s the most important question we ask new clients. We need to make sure our keyword research is accurate. We want to target services that make them the most money. If we get that wrong, they’ll only want to pay small amounts. We need to hit the right type of leads.

This is what differentiates us from normal pay-per-lead companies. We only get paid what the client wants to pay, based on performance. So we start by generating a large volume of enquiries, then gather feedback on what converted and what didn’t.

For example, if we send fifty boiler-related leads and the company says they don’t handle boiler repairs and only install new boilers, we can filter those leads. Repairs go to a servicing business. Cleaning goes to another. High-ticket replacements go to the premium installer.

Our CRM lets us segment, qualify, and route leads to the correct businesses. That ensures they get the right type of lead, make good ROI, and then pay us what they feel is fair from the profit. It de-risks everything. They only pay when they convert. It makes the decision easy for UK businesses.

**Andrew Holland:**
I love this model for so many reasons. Small business owners are brilliant at their trade, but they’re not expected to be experts in digital marketing. This model fits their economics. They know what profit they make upfront and what profit they make on the back end.

I also love that it puts money back into the economy. You’re not making a lead gen company rich for the sake of it. You’re allowing businesses to pay within their profitable range, and that profit feeds back into salaries, the local economy, and growth.

Because you work with so many SMEs across the UK, you’re spreading revenue across communities instead of funneling everything to major corporations with huge budgets.

So congratulations on the model. I think it’s brilliant, and I think it’s going to be loved by a lot of people. And well done for creating something that feeds back into the UK economy in a meaningful way.

**James Dooley:**
Appreciate it. Thank you very much, Andrew.

**Andrew Holland:**
No worries. Cheers.